[Interview] Creating a future where everyone has access to cellular agriculture

The most feasible fields in science fiction

Ozawa:First of all, please tell us how you came to start IntegriCulture.

Hanyu:Originally, I followed the path of science and engineering because I was inspired by the world of science fiction. I studied nanotechnology in my doctoral studies at university, and after graduating I worked in the environmental energy field. However, I felt a strong desire to embody the world of science fiction, and among the various ideas that came to mind, I arrived at "cultured meat" as a field where I could take on a realistic challenge.

In fact, I tried to tackle this field, but I didn't have the funds or knowledge, and it was difficult to gather members. I also felt that it would be boring if such a society-changing innovation were born from the existing system, so I thought I would spread it to the world as an open source project. At first, I started an open source project as a "semi-business". In the process, various people gathered and a so-called doujin circle called "Shojinmeat Project" was formed. It is still active today, publishing doujinshi and technical books.

As many people gathered and discussed cellular agriculture, I thought, "When this technology is released into society, I don't think it's romantic if one large company monopolizes it," and "There is a risk that it will invite backlash like genetically modified foods." That's why we need an ecosystem. For-profit organizations to spread the technology to society, non-profit organizations that involve governments and academies to create rules, and artists and citizen scientists who can do truly cutting-edge things without being bound by adult circumstances, so I thought that doujin circles would also be necessary. I thought that organizations with such roles, such as the Japan Cellular Agriculture Association, Integriculture Inc., and Shojinmeat, should work together to create the core of social implementation.

This ecosystem concept is also reflected in our company's vision. IntegriCulture aims to create "cellular agriculture that everyone can use." We want to create a society in which various people can use the cellular agriculture infrastructure to create new things.

Ozawa:Thank you. With so many different research topics, why did you focus on cultured meat? 

Hanyu:There are so many different themes. There are many things I want to do, such as a Mars colony and a mass driver. However, when I thought about what I could tackle now, I felt that cultured meat had potential. I thought that cultured meat would become mainstream by the middle of the 21st century, and the fact that it is not physically impossible is a big reason.

*A technology that appears in science fiction works to transport cargo and spacecraft into space.

Ozawa:Are there any sci-fi works that feature cultured meat that have left an impression on you?

Hanyu:There are so many that I can't remember any specific works, but they often appear in the world of science fiction. I like the "world of science fiction", but I don't like the works themselves or the literature. This may be a slightly different perspective from that of traditional science fiction fans.

Ozawa:Going back to the topic at hand, could you please tell us the specific roles that Integriculture, the Japan Cellular Agriculture Association, and Shojinmeat each play?

Hanyu:For example, the Japan Cellular Agriculture Association held a conference called the "Cellular Agriculture Conference" on August 8th, where many researchers gathered to present their research. It was a great success, with participants from the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, other government ministries, and companies. The conference was centered on academic discussions, and I thought it was good that very pure discussions were held on the state of the art and methodology.

On the other hand, "Shojinmeat" is a doujin circle that has no membership or definitions and where people can come together freely to do their activities. They are free to do whatever they want, such as making cultured meat at home, making art, and supporting other creators. They even posted a video on Nico Nico Douga titled "I made and ate cultured meat."

Ozawa:Niconico Video, that's interesting.

Hanyu:Recently, "bioartists" have been making works using cell cultures. In general, art is expressed by drawing, carving, kneading, etc., but bioart creates works by "growing". In that sense, bonsai can be said to be the forerunner of bioart. We have supported several works that create shapes through this "growing" process. Recently, someone named "LOM BABY" exhibited a piece called "Dragon Meat" at the National Art Center, Tokyo.

Ozawa:It's really interesting. I think there are very few people in Japan who are doing this kind of activity, and I think it's very unique and cutting-edge. I think that's reflected in the way Integriculture is, and I think it's because of that idea that Integriculture was born.

The underlying spirit of "increasing culture"

Ozawa:Could you also tell us about the role of IntegriCulture?

Hanyu:IntegriCulture aims to create a reliable social infrastructure. In other words, we aim to realize our vision of "cellular agriculture that everyone can use" and provide an infrastructure that can be used with confidence.

Ozawa:What kind of thoughts are behind this? 

Hanyu:What Shojinmeat, cellular agriculture, and Integriculture have in common is the spirit of "increasing culture." As a means of increasing culture, we aim to create "cellular agriculture that everyone can use." What we create are "perishable goods." The products could be food, cosmetics, or even cell parts. I think this includes the bioart mentioned earlier, and the "muscle-powered robots" being researched by Professor Masaharu Takeuchi of the University of Tokyo (※). We hope that by creating such "perishable goods," a new culture will be born.

*Professor Masaharu Takeuchi: Professor at the Graduate School of Engineering, University of Tokyo. He is a researcher specializing in bioengineering, which combines biology and engineering to develop new technologies, microfluidic devices, which use microscale fluid control technology to develop biosensors and lab-on-a-chip devices, and cell engineering, which develops new technologies for manipulating and analyzing cells.

Ozawa:That fresh product manufacturing is reflected in Integriculture's current business. Could you tell us specifically what kind of business you are currently working on, such as food and cosmetics?

Hanyu:In the business of making fresh products, there are things that can be done now and things that can be realized in the future, things that can be done cheaply and things that cost a lot. Among them, the first thing that I have worked on as something that is currently profitable and feasible is the cosmetics field.

Ozawa:Cosmetics come first.

Hanyu:Yes, "cell-ag cosmetics" is a type of perishable item. For example, it is a field that deals with ingredients derived from living organisms, such as human stem cell cultures and collagen. Some people believe that it is undesirable to kill animals in order to use ingredients derived from animals, and generally, by-products from food production are used, but there are issues with the stability of supply. In that respect, by producing raw materials for cosmetics through cell culture, a stable supply can be ensured.

Ozawa:It's true that there are many plant-based ingredients, but in some ways you can feel the effects more easily from animal-based ingredients.

Hanyu:That's right. Materials derived from chicken eggs are one example of an ingredient that may be effective, but the supply is unstable, with avian flu outbreaks causing disruptions.

Ozawa:How big is the market for anti-aging cosmetics?

Hanyu:We understand that the domestic market is about 4000 billion yen. It's a big market for a venture like ours. In the early stages, we focused on the cosmetics field, which is profitable, but next we are considering hard-to-obtain foods, such as luxury ingredients like foie gras, as a field that is likely to be profitable. Incidentally, because typical steak meat has a complex meat structure, making it from cultured meat is as technically difficult as making a cultured heart in regenerative medicine, and it will take a long time to realize this.

Ozawa:You are currently developing foie gras. How will you be able to recreate the taste and texture?

Hanyu:The development of the technology to reproduce it is progressing, but the question is whether it can be produced stably. In the first place, whether it resembles the real thing is a separate issue. What was interesting here was that chefs were very interested in the raw material of freshly cultured foie gras. There are several chefs who are excited about it, saying things like, "I want to try it because it's an ingredient that no one has ever handled before," and "I'll cook it, so please give it to me as it is without processing it." I even think that it would be better in terms of increasing new cultures if we left it to professional chefs rather than us trying to make it resemble foie gras. If you think about it, it's probably only natural. Chefs are craftsmen who are always looking for new flavors, so even this mushy mass of cells will make them want to try it as a new ingredient.

Ozawa:That's similar to how startups develop their markets. Chefs and startups have one thing in common: they both create something new.

Hanyu:That's right. Some people see cell-cultured meat as a "substitute food," but I don't think so. I see it as a completely new food culture. It's not a substitute food, it's a "new food."

Ozawa:In that sense, is there a challenge that it will be seen as a meat substitute and not be accepted as something "completely new"?

Hanyu:This awareness may spread in the future, so how we communicate that message will be important. In this regard, a branding strategy will be key.

Focus on achieving stable and mass production

Ozawa:What challenges does IntegriCulture face right now? Of course there is the issue of branding, but are there any issues you think the company or society as a whole faces?

Hanyu:When considering the issues, the first thing we need to establish is "low-cost, stable mass production." If this point is not established, all discussions of consumer needs and branding will be nothing more than armchair theory. That's why we are currently focusing on this aspect.

Ozawa:In order to ensure stable production, is it necessary to conduct further research and introduce a mass production system?

Hanyu:Yes, that's right. However, the production system itself is not yet commercially available, so we have to develop it ourselves. That's why collaborative research and development is important. This is where we are putting our most effort.

Ozawa:For example, could you tell us as much as you can about the specific content of your research?

Hanyu:Our approach is to first have "upstream players," i.e. companies that provide bioreactors and raw materials, and then "downstream players," i.e. companies that make consumer products, such as food companies, cosmetics companies, and health food companies. Without both, cellular agriculture cannot be realized. However, because cellular agriculture is a new field, companies entering the field are still feeling their way around.

Therefore, our role is to clarify the path of cellular agriculture. If that path is clear, it will be easier for both upstream and downstream companies to come together and say, "This is what we're good at." Fortunately, this trend is now starting to become a reality.

As a specific example, we are working with Maruha Nichiro, a "downstream" player, on the production of seafood using cell culture technology. Meanwhile, on the "upstream" side, we are collaborating with the CulNet Consortium (※). For example, Hamano Seisakusho in Sumida Ward, which has strengths in rapid prototyping, and other material manufacturers are also participating.

*The CulNet Consortium is an open innovation platform led by IntegriCulture, aiming to commercialize and popularize cellular agriculture. Its main objectives are to develop technology and infrastructure to promote cell culture and to build an efficient production system. Participating companies work together to solve problems such as large-scale cell culture production and cost reduction.

Ozawa:It seems like more and more people are gathering in the CulNet Consortium.

Hanyu:That's right. Currently, about 16 companies are participating, and we are seeing steady results.

Ozawa:When did you launch the consortium?

Hanyu:It was established on April 2021, 4. We have now reached the stage where products developed by consortium member companies are being exhibited at cellular agriculture-related trade fairs held in Singapore and are actually being sold. In Japan, it is sometimes said that there is little investment in the cellular agriculture field, but in fact there are many companies with technologies that can contribute to cellular agriculture.

Ozawa:Specifically, what kinds of companies tend to have these technologies?

Hanyu:Most of them are material manufacturers and manufacturing companies.

Ozawa:As Integriculture, are there any companies in any industry or with any technology that you would like to see more participate in the consortium?

Hanyu:Yes, it is an engineering company that is particularly strong in the fields of machinery and factory automation, and in the design of bioreactors and bioprocesses. For example, they are people with on-site skills who wear work clothes and do welding in factories.

Ozawa:Given Integriculture's business activities, it is difficult to understand how it is related to these companies, but how are they related?

Hanyu:For example, a company that designs and implements equipment for continuous production. Imagine a company that makes large tanks and piping equipment for a major dairy company that produces yogurt and beverages.

Ozawa:I see, so that's the kind of company that will be involved. Up until now, I thought that we would be involved with companies that make food and products, but now we also need to collaborate with companies that make the equipment itself.

Hanyu:Yes, it is important for food companies to commercialize the final product using bioreactors, but first of all, the infrastructure to produce cellular foods is essential. I think that this "production infrastructure" and "establishment of a market" are closely related like the two wheels of a car. Currently, the technological bottleneck is in the upstream part that is responsible for "being able to make."

Ozawa:It seems that a large amount of capital will be required to establish an upstream production base.

Hanyu:That's true, but it's also something that needs to be done well. There are many cases overseas where large amounts of capital have been raised and large facilities have been introduced with current technology, but the bubble has burst and the situation is at a standstill. It is often said that overseas countries are more advanced than Japan because of the amount of investment in cellular agriculture, but that is precisely why this cannot be said. That is why the CulNet Consortium is significant.

Ozawa:So at this stage, large-scale deployment is not the right answer.

Hanyu:What's important now is "rapid prototyping," or rapid trial and error. It doesn't have to be large-scale to do this, so we're doing rapid prototyping in a small-scale production environment, and we're working with everyone in the CulNet Consortium to advance development while trying out elements such as automation, continuous production, and recycling of culture medium.

Ozawa:In this regard, are you utilizing the SBIR* funds that were approved at the end of last year?

*SBIR (Small Business Innovation Research) is a government subsidy program to support technological innovation among small and medium-sized enterprises. It aims to promote innovation and create unicorns by providing funds necessary for research and development and the market expansion of new technologies.

Hanyu:That's absolutely true. Overall, we are working on scaling up and establishing a stable production system. SBIR is a four-year program, so we plan to complete it within that time.

Ozawa:If the upstream entity is the CulNet Consortium, then the downstream entity would be Ocatté Base (※), which was launched in June of this year.

*Katteba is a membership-based B2B marketplace that connects manufacturers who sell materials necessary for cellular agriculture with companies interested in cellular agriculture. Its mission is to create a world (place) where "everyone can participate in cellular agriculture freely (as they wish)."

Hanyu:That's right. We exhibit what we jointly develop in the CulNet Consortium at the CulNet Consortium, and users at the CulNet Consortium actually use it and provide feedback to the CulNet Consortium. This allows for an exchange of ideas both upstream and downstream.

Support that does not dilute commitment

Ozawa:It has been about a year and a half since the Tokyo Consortium started supporting you. What do you think was good about that experience?

Hanyu: It was really reassuring to have the emotional support I needed during the chaotic period just before our SBIR application was approved.

Ozawa:Before SBIR, we had regular meetings about once every two weeks, and we had various agendas each time, including discussing funding, acquiring customers, and even the process of going public.

Hanyu:It was a time of great confusion. I hope that startup support systems like SBIR will continue in the future, but I feel that the important thing is that funds are poured into places where commitment is not diluted, which will be a major driving force. If funds go to a holding company of a large corporate alliance, the commitment will be diluted and it will be difficult to achieve the expected results, but if funds are poured into healthy startups, I think they will grow significantly.

Ozawa:You're right. As deep tech becomes even more important in the future, we, as supporters, still have a lot to learn about how to develop it and how to create role models.

Hanyu:I think Israel can be a good example for startups in their early stages. It has an environment where startups with cutting-edge technology can easily obtain funding. However, the challenge is that Israel's domestic market is small, so companies that grow have no choice but to go abroad.

Ozawa:There are many companies expanding into the American market.

Dreaming of a "solarpunk" world

Ozawa:Finally, I would like to ask you about your future prospects.

Hanyu:My personal dream is to realize "cellular agriculture that everyone can use." Ultimately, I would like to reach the world of "solarpunk." It's the future depicted in the opening of the movie "2112: The Birth of Doraemon."

Ozawa:I have seen the concept of "solarpunk" in materials prepared by Mr. Hanyu.

Hanyu:"Solarpunk" is considered to be the opposite of cyberpunk. If cyberpunk is black, purple, and pink, solarpunk is a world of white, green, and blue images. For example, it is a world where white futuristic buildings are more than half covered in green, octopus-shaped windmills float in the sky, drones with solar panels transport things, and there are no corporate signs at all.

Ozawa:What path do you envision for the future you want to take to get there?

Hanyu:First, we need to develop a cellular agriculture infrastructure that anyone can use. To achieve this, we need technology that can produce fresh food stably, in large quantities, and at low cost. It is also important that such technology is accessible to a wide range of people.

Ozawa:That means you are aiming to expand not only domestically but globally.

Hanyu:Yes, both domestically and internationally. However, there are only a limited number of countries that can actually achieve this. For example, Singapore is strong in terms of funding, but its manufacturing base is weak and it is not suitable for manufacturing. On the other hand, countries with well-established manufacturing bases, such as Japan, Germany, and China, can realistically develop such infrastructure. I think this is one of Japan's strengths and will be a winning strategy.

Ozawa:Indeed, Japan is recognized as a manufacturing powerhouse.

Hanyu:Although it still needs updating, the industrial base is well established. In fact, there are not many countries with such a base, and the UK, Germany, China, and the US are the only ones that fit the description. Creating new value as a "manufacturing powerhouse" may sound like a cliché, but this is an important point.

Ozawa:That makes sense. You're going to take advantage of Japan's manufacturing base to create infrastructure and systems for cellular agriculture.

Hanyu:I agree.

Ozawa:Thank you for sharing your valuable thoughts with us today. I now understand Mr. Hanyu's thoughts very well.